Tuesday, October 23, 2007

Upcoming posts

This is what I have planned, in no order of preference, but I'll probably start with designer dogs.

shelters misidentifying dogs and pushing off pit mixes as something else
designer dogs
sled dog industry
BSL/breed bias
poorly bred purebreds

Feel free to put specific breeders in the comments that you'd like me to showcase, ala FHOTD. I have one "breeder" I'm working on, as soon as I can stop heaving over it.

146 comments:

Sarah said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sarah said...

I'd love to see you address a problem like pit bulls being deliberately mislabeled as lab mixes or boxer mixes, etc., at shelters and rescues. That's an insidious problem, and one that needs much more attention. Too many rescue people seem to feel that anything goes if you're trying to rehome an animal.

Another suggestion - the ethics of rehoming dog-aggressive dogs. That's one thing that disturbs me about pit bull rescue; I'm not convinced they screen adequately (ie, euthanize) for dog-aggression, but give too much slack because of the history of the breed/type, as if that's a get-out-of-jail-free-card. I don't say we need to euthanize all dogs with DA, but any dog that shows serious levels shouldn't be rehomed. Yes, it can be manageable. But all it takes is one slip and another dog is dead. What kind of dog 'rescue' is that?

melodiousaphony said...

I'd like the pit mix mislabeling issue addressed too as I adopted a mislabeled mix recently. Personally, I don't _want_ any of the paper work to say "Pit Mix" on them as I live where there is BSL (so please address that too ::grin::) BUT it would have been good if the people at the shelter hinted at it rather than just shrugging. Granted, I did have an inkling from the picture and was not against the idea, but an unofficial "you know, this is a..." would have been good. However, when you adopt a dog from a prison for $20, you can't expect much.

Even though I do own a pit-type dog, I do agree that EXTREMELY dog aggressive dogs should be put down OR if by some miricle there is a well qualified trainer (of the non-fighting type) that wants it, go for it. Otherwise, they're taking up space that could be given to a more placeable dog (something I feel awful writing, but realistically, it's true). I don't mean put down the pitties, no way, I mean put down ANY breed of dog that is, as an individual, super dog aggressive. I've met dog-happy pits mixes (that are over 6, thus past the usual point of hormone take over) and some REALLY dog aggressive little dogs, so it's not breed, it's dog (some breeds just have it genetically worse off).

colorisnteverything said...

BSL. That would be a good post. I get sick of seeing dogs mislabled, too. Pitts that are dog agressive should never be rehomed with someone who is unsuspecting and possibly be never rehomed again because people (in general) take their dogs out where there are other dogs and that is a disaster waiting to happen.

However, it really can happen with any dog. My greyhound was attacked and almost died from puncture wounds from a boxer mix and my shih-tzu almost died because of 3 golden retrievers that attacked him at a dog run. My dad also needed about 20 stitches, too.

Sola said...

Honestly, pit or not, dog aggression should be warned against--but I don't feel that it's terrible that the dogs don't get LABELED as pits, particularly if they really aren't dog aggressive. I know plenty of pits and pit mixes that really are fine around other dogs.

It isn't as if the labelling things in rescues aren't terribly screwed up anyway. My own personal terrier cross was labelled a "cockapoo mix" (mutually exclusive, anyone?) and Shepherd X and Lab X seem to be standard "we don't know what the hell this is." Anyone taking a rescue's word on what breed their new pet is is asking to be mislead.

In any case, I've always found that it's more accurate in a lot of cases to judge personality based on the individual dog, not its breed. I've met and been attacked by quite a few Labs and Lab mixes, and I've seen even more that are so out-of-control and clueless when it comes to canine manners that they start fights in parks when they knock over other dogs or run into them.

I do agree that dog-aggressive dogs and especially human-aggressive dogs shouldn't be adopted out without warning, but aggressive dogs come in all breeds. Does it really matter if a pit mix's owners call it a Lab mix? The dog is the same either way.

Gracie said...

I rescued a lab mix from the pound and the more I looked at him the more pitt I saw in him. That was fine, I wasnt going to freak out, untill he got my Golden retriever by the throat and had to be beat nearly unconcious to get him to let go. At that moment he because too dangerous to rehome and was promptly returned to the pound where he was euthanized. I also had to have another rescue put to sleep after months of work and 9 bites to myself and my children.

As far as the designer dogs, I have now heard of a new one called a borgie. Its a bordercollie/corgie mix Someone in my area is selling them for $250 each and is breeding her dog on every heat cycle to cash in on this "new" breed.

Irantfordays said...

Oh jesus oh jesus PLEASE do these two places PLEASE!

"pitbulls":
http://gottiline.com/

Ugliest rottweilers ever:
http://brittanysanimalkingdom.com/

If you need good examples of the breed to compare against:

APBT:
http://apbtconformation.com/

Rottweilers:
http://redwoodkrest.com/

melodiousaphony said...

"I rescued a lab mix from the pound and the more I looked at him the more pitt I saw in him. That was fine, I wasnt going to freak out, untill he got my Golden retriever by the throat and had to be beat nearly unconcious to get him to let go. At that moment he because too dangerous to rehome and was promptly returned to the pound where he was euthanized."

If I were you I would have returned him to a shelter too; dog that came first and is not causing the issue has priority [read: on this point, I agree with you].
What I have to say now is something that I don't want you to take as horrendously offensive because if you don't know, you just don't know, and if no one puts the fear of G-d into you to look into the following, there is no reason for you not too. The vets that saw my dog before I got her, along with friends that saw her picture, scared the HELL out of me about her being a pit. So, aside from making sure she has never been officially tagged a pit mix and understanding the BSL in my area, the other paper-related thing I did prior to her arrival is read TONS of things about bully type dogs. One of my first priorities was to learn about dealing with breaking up dog fights, especially since pit types fight differently than regular dogs (grabbing vs. snapping). Beating a pit will probably not get the dog to stop, you have to pop open their mouth. Instead of rambling about how and how the dog that isn't a pit is probably more a danger to you than the pit I am going to summerize my already tirade as this:
IF rescues adopt out pit-types, and I think that they should if the dog isn't horridly dog aggressive AND the owner is aware of the possibility is TEACH the new owner how to BREAK UP DOG FIGHTS! If rescues are going to be so funky about having pit-types, but still adopt them out under other names, etc., they can at least give the unsuspecting new owner some breed-specific info.

Original L said...

Good advice, melodiousaphony, re: breaking the bite hold by "popping" the jaw open.

Another VERY useful tip I've read in a book about Schutzhund (protection/police) training is that pulling BACK on the collar is not a good idea when the dog has a solid grip - that will simply tighten their grip. Instead, if possible, you can give a quick, hard jerk DOWN & FORWARD and then yank them off as soon as their jaw loosens.

By the way, I had a dog-aggressive Australian Shepherd/Akita mix once upon a time, (NOT a good mix by the way, very smart and stubborn! But I loved her dearly) and dealing with that kind of dog is a lot of work. People should be prepared before hand. She definitely taught me a lot about dog training... :-)

L.L. said...

Personally I'd love to see the problem of too many damn labradors addressed. EVERY SINGLE shelter in the country is just over-run with them. And everyone keeps breeding more. A friend of mine just suddenly last year decided to get a lab, a "golden lab", so much more special. I suggested she go to one of the 3 shelters within a 15 mile radius. Nope, wanted one with papers. She's never had a registered dog, never had a dog as an adult (she's 51). So she bought one for $1200. A female that she wanted to breed - - it ended up having...demodex? Vet said don't breed it, but of course she embarked on some natural remedy course and got a second, then third opinion and now may breed it. BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE! She decided dog needed a playmate - - wanted another lab. I pleaded with her to get one from a shelter. Nope, $1000 for a black lab female. Both unspayed, both of breeding age (potentially, as both have had a heat cycle), both have run away several times, both have been to training but are unruly, both are typical young, strong labs. She's read all the goofy books, Monks of Skeet or whatever, Dog Whisperer, etc. Dogs have pulled her down when on lead, it's a freaking mess. And labs are just as likely to bite and be dog aggressive as any other breed. ::::sigh::: I'm so sick of seeing labs in shelters and it just breaks my heart to see some fool thinking about breeding any more of them. What to do, what to do.

melodiousaphony said...

L.L. they used to make dog-birth control... ::grin::. Guess that would probably be illegal, but I think that breeders should be required to be licensed so maybe I've fallen off my rocker all together.

"For the things we have to learn before we can do them, we learn by doing them" (Aristotle via The Man Himself) or, as it applies to your friend's situation: read all you want, but you and your dogs won't learn 'til you actually DO something (and mean it, as I've come to learn with my rambunctious little punk of a dog-smart but FULL of energy).

Irantfordays said...

I think I'lldo my own designer dogs article later and let you have at it moontoad. i think my next post will be on the 'evolution' (more like degeneration) of dog breeds.

L.L. said...

Good thoughts, melodious. Said friend is just enraptured by the Monks of Skeet, but only gets the spiritual side of it, doesn't seem to quite catch on to the part about actually needing to have discipline. I work with a BC rescue and we do get lots of purebred BCs in (people think they are so CUTE and so SMART and stupidly think they are able to be couch potatoes in their suburban homes), but at least half of the mixes we get in are BC/lab. And it usually doesn't make for an attractive dog, they usually look like a hairier, finer boned lab. Great.

A post on the mutts I mean designed dogs would be lovely. I think I already posted once either here or on Fugly that some of the stupid names they come up with make me puke too. Golden Doodles sounds like something the puppy did in the corner of the living room.

Gracie said...

"Beating a pit will probably not get the dog to stop, you have to pop open their mouth."


I am not offended at all. This was something I have never had to deal with before but may have to deal with in the future. Any advice on the best way to quickly break up a persistant dog fight? How do I pop open the mouth? Most of the time they stop when I make an appearance because they know they are going to be in trouble. All I have to do is yell at them to knock it off and then deal with what cause the problem in the first place. But this pitt attacked viciously and would not let go at all.

ottbluver said...

Irantfordays, those are some Hiddeous animals. The woman who breeds the rotties advertizes in The Robb Report, a mag for people with alot of money. Those pitts just look fat, not sleek and terrier like.
I can't stand the designer dogs, the only one i don't have a problem with are the "Doodles" they were bred for a reason from what I've seen. The woman who started it wanted a friendly, larger, non-allergenic dog. That's just what the "Doodles" are. But all the rest, puggles ugh!! Yorkie Russells? who the hell would want a mix like that? they're ugly too!!

ottbluver said...

Of course I don't think those Redwood Krest dogs look right either, the eyes are wrong.

SquirrelGurl said...

Designer Dogs.. argh! The city I live in is overrun with them. My biggest pet peeves are Golden Doodles & Puggles... I'm sorry no dog is 100% hypo allergenic, no matter what people will try to tell you, some breeds just shed less allergens than others and that gives the impression that they are "hypoallergenic." Every golden doodle I've met at the dog park has been a crazed, slobbery, goofy animal that flails around the dog park. I am sure there are some well behaved ones out there, but its been my experience in my town that most "doodle" owners want their dog to be their CHILD, not their DOG and that just leads them down the road of dog ownership w/ no boundaries for the dog and thats never a good thing.And the price people pay for these "things"! $1500!!! How many shelter dogs can you rescue for that price?!

moontoad said...

You have to remember, Irantfordogs, that no dog breeds would exist without human intervention. Dogs, themselves, were created by humans.

melodiousaphony said...

Breaking up a fight involving a "bully" type dog, here is a good resource: http://www.pbrc.net/breakfight.html

That site is a good resource for pitties and related breeds in general. Keep in mind, you are probably more in danger from the other dog than your pit when breaking up a fight just because of fighting style. I'd type the whole bit out, but I bet you'd probably find some good stuff poking through the site anyway. When owning a pit/bully type, there is no such thing as reading too much.

Sola said...

"A friend of mine just suddenly last year decided to get a lab, a "golden lab", so much more special."

...she does know that "golden lab" is an INCORRECT name for a plain ol' yellow Lab, right? *face, meet hand*

Personally? I'd never own a Lab. I've met FAR too many that were out of control, rambunctious, untrained, etc. and they are FAR too prone to bodyslamming when excited for me. I see so many people who assume that they're the perfect family pet and therefore don't need training, which really bothers me--especially when they go on to dump the dog because it isn't living up to their expectations! (I would LOVE to see a topic on incorrect breed touting--people saying Labs are inherently perfect, poodle crosses are ALL hypoallergenic, Border Collies make good apartment dogs--YES I HAVE SEEN THAT ONE--in the future.)

Personally I don't believe Labs are really great pets for families with small children for just that reason, since they tend to be SO clumsy and prone to knocking things over. Of course, I also don't believe that there's such a thing as an all-purpose pet and think that the success of any dog in a kid-family depends on the owners.

Irantfordays said...

Oh I know moontoad but people should be breeding dogs to be better not worse. EB can barely give birth naturally any more from what I've seen it's almost all c-section.

Now I don't agree with everything on this site i'm about to link but it shows good example of breeds that have gotten pretty but are no longer useful and in some cases are not even healthy any more.

http://www.greys-holt-kennels.co.uk/pugarticle.htm

Shannon said...

I work at a boarding kennel and I see EVERYTHING!!! The designer dogs, the poorly bred pure breds. I recently came across a very disturbing website...it has to be a puppymill, as she breeds every kind of designer dogs. I think the most disgusting mix was "Cujo is our Miniature Mastiiff type! Shockerd, (English Shepherd/Cocker), + Ori Pei, (Shar Pei + Pug) cross". She is breeding this cross w/ Saint Bernard/Cocker crosses to "create" Mini Saint Bernards. I would like to see you expose http://www.dakotawinds.homestead.com/Puppies.html

Sola said...

Re: that site, Irantfordays, I find it amusing that the owner is going on so much about Pug crosses to further the extreme bracycephalic face on English Bulldogs--originally Pug faces WEREN'T that extreme. They're another breed that were hurt by breeding for extremities.

I've seen pictures of champion dogs from the 20s, and I agree--modern breeding, at least for the show ring, does tend to be breeding out usefulness in many cases. It's not as bad as it was when these breeds were extremified, though, and I would like to point out that there are a few breeds which remain largely unaffected, such as the German Shorthaired Pointer. Even so--I see obese Labs, FLUFFY terriers (what the heck happened to "harsh working coat?") and those god-awful exaggerated cuts on Poodles and it makes me want to tear my hair out. FHOTD is lamenting the conformation classes in her QHs ruining the horse breed, and all I can say is "duh--it's been going on for DECADES in purebred dogs!" Conformation should NEVER be the sole or major sport for a breeder to breed for, IMO.

moontoad said...

I'm not saying that I'm disagreeing with anyone, but you also have to realize that the need for working dogs is miniscule compared to how it used to be.

Poodle cuts were similar, just not as quite as extreme because they are water dogs. The hair was left on the joints to keep it warm, cut elsewhere because the coat was so thick.

I'm not really against breeding dogs that aren't useful anymore, in a working sense, because 90% of dog owners don't use them that way. Most of the dogs with working drives end up in shelters after the average dog owner can't handle them. That's a worse situation to me than breeding a dog that can't work in the first place.

Sola said...

I'm not saying that working or a high-drive activity should necessarily be the sport that the person is driving for--I would be satisfied with Rally-O or Obedience, which don't require quite the same high drives that a lot of traditional working activities do. I just want to see people breeding for something besides "prettiness"--really, that is what the conformation ring is about, at least to me. I would rather dogs be bred for something that stresses healthiness than the show ring.

L.L. said...

I tell people who just want a PET to get a Boston Terrier. That's what they were bred for: companionship. And good news, there are BT rescues in every state, and you also find them in many shelters - - there was just a beautiful 11 month old female BT in our local shelter, looked to have already had a litter. Not breed standard, but definitely purebred. Probably dumped near the shelter from a puppy mill, as she was caught in one of their live traps (they were trying to trap some kittens that someone had dumped in a freaking BOX). Another excellent PET is a retired greyhound, they don't generally want to do anything other than be loved on and sleep on your sofa. We've owned 2, and they are very boring but very loving and sweet. Great apartment dogs, just walk them enough to pee and crap and they're happy campers (although we're in the country so ours got plenty of running room).

I agree that there is so little call for working dogs anymore that I hate seeing many bred. And my friend thinks it's "golden", not "yellow" lab. She has no clue and yes, both of her labs are great tacklers and very clumsy and they have that horrible killer tail. They are working dogs with no job to do.

I think the doodle dogs are ugly, like a frankstein monster. What the hell are we doing breeding these things? Just because we CAN doesn't mean we SHOULD. If you have allergies to dogs DON'T HAVE A FREAKING DOG. Simple as that. Get a goldfish or a snake or something, leaves the dogs alone.

melodiousaphony said...

Re: designer dogs... what REALLY disturbs me about these dogs (and this is coming from the science/math nerd part of me): there is NO attention paid to breeding consistency, etc. It's one thing to create a new breed (which takes generations of careful selecting, etc.) but to breed random dogs with no standard whatsoever and CLAIM it's a breed. WTF is that?!
::sigh::

tielz said...

I: Breaking up a dog fight is not the same as outing a dog in sport or protection. :) I know putting a hand in front to grab the front of a collar would not be my first choice in a fight situation.

Moontoad: Yes, domestic dogs were created by man but all for a reason. There are still purebreds out there with more of a companion temperament. Nowadays, it seems like cute, coat and trend rule to the detriment of the purebreds and then add the stupid designer dogs to the mix and yes, I agree with the previous post about the downfall of domestic dogs. There is simply no reason to make mutts. IMPROVE the purebreds. If that is too hard, then DON'T BREED DOGS is what I say. I love border collies, but they don't fit into my life right now. And I surely won't buy a watered down one just because I like them. I will leave the breed to those who do still work it and stick to breeds who do fit into my life.
Working drive dogs ending up in shelters? Uh, nope, that is a misinformed statement. Most of the real working dogs don't get into the hands of the general public. These breeders are usually extremely careful about who they place a dog with and TAKE THEM BACK if there is a problem (usually caused by said owner not following through with training). So workng drive is the not reason dogs end up in shelters, it is more like bad breeding/temperament and poor handling/training that cause the dog to become an anxious mess that most people get fed up with because it not an instant Lassie.
People have gotten lazy and no longer want to dedicate the time to training a dog. I have seen it many times over. The poor dogs suffers the most, unfortunately. :(

L.L. said...

So you don't consider a labrador retriever to be a working dog? They are hunting/water dogs and should be utilized for those activities. Somehow, here in America folks have gotten the mistaken belief that they are the perfect "family" dog. Lab puppies are adorable - - just round and fuzzy and they smell so sweet. And then they go through about 3 years of hellish puppy/adolescent behavior unless they are being worked - - not a 15 minute walk twice a day, but worked. Obedience trained, used for field trials, hunted, or engaged in strenuous play for quite longer than most families have the time to do with them. And YES many of these dogs end up in shelters - - and somehow, a good portion of the large mixed breeds in shelters are x plus lab. Personally, I don't think that adding lab to any mix improves anything.

Border Collies, another working dogs, DO END UP IN SHELTERS. I post all the relinquish requests for one BC rescue here in the midwest. They come in constantly from shelters. Last week, 15 dogs at once, all purebred BCs.

German Shephards, another working dog, huskies, Golden Retrievers, various hounds- - just go in the "big dog" area of any shelter and that's what you see. Not standard poodles, just labs, GS, Huskies, BC or Australian or mixes of these dogs. There was just an article in People I think it was about BBD Syndrome: dogs most commonly in shelters and least likely to find a home are Big Black Dogs. The Big Black part generally comes from Lab.

Yes, someone who is purchasing a working dog to use it correctly is likely to return it to the breeder. But all the thousands of people who stupidly get these dogs for "pets" and have no idea what the heck they are getting into just take the dog to the pound when the cute puppy stage wears off. Or better yet, release the dog in the country and hope that a "friendly farmer" or the animal control takes care of their problem. The friend I posted about bought both of her labs from a breeder, "show" dogs you know, and they are outta control. She has no idea what the heck she's doing with them. I'm anticipating at least one litter of mix-breed pups, as neither are spayed and they "get loose" periodically.

Just as a side note: when I was doing the "personal contact" schtick for the BC rescue, I wasn't real helpful in placing dogs with potential adopters. I thoroughly described the breed and the needs of the breed and usually talked the potential adopter into looking into a different breed of dog, given their living situation.

tielz said...

II,
Yes, Labs are absolutely working dogs. I don't think they are ideal house dogs at all. I see no benefit in crossing ANY working breeds by uninformed, unknowledgeable backyard breeders period. Terriers are tenatious working dogs and yet people insist on breeding and crossing these dogs for "cuteness". Then they cross these small dogs with other small dogs that were created for a totally different reason and what the heck are they trying to do there?
I agree that BC's end up in rescue, but I was not referring to soft dogs with drive, I was referring to hard, rare breed dogs bred by responsible breeders. Yes, they do get into the hands of the irresponsible, but not as readily as a lab, thankfully. I am sick of hearing people say that working drive is bad in a dog because they are not used so much for that anymore. You are not going to breed out drive by crossing breeds, you are going to maybe make it recessive or mess up the temperament, but you are not going to magically make a Lab a lap dog or a BC an apartment pet. I think you would agree with me on this.
There needs to be regulation on breeders, it is too out of control, too many dogs are put down yearly. Too many purebreds are messed up the way it is, then outcross and wow, what a mess. I am all for temperament testing in any dog that gets bred, I am all for closing puppy mills and backyard breeders having to be regulated. I know it won't happen, so the mass killing and abuse of dogs will contine on.
To me, education of the public as to what a well bred dog is, what will fit into their lifestyle and how to work with dogs is also important. Maybe this blog will turn a light on for at least a few of the ignorant people out there. I hope it does.

:)

L.L. said...

lopoa, I think we are on the same page, same paragraph!

melodiousaphony said...

Lopoa and LL, you've underlined the reason I don't own a BC (though I really like them) and why my lab mix is a) in puppy class now, b) gets real walks, and c) will be progressing to agility once we've got some basic obedience. Dogs need to be made tired. If you don't want something that wants to work for you, get a cat ;)

Sola said...

Ain't it the truth. XD The reasons you two are going over is also the reason that I will not be acquiring another German Shorthaired Pointer, although I'm head-over-heels for the breed, until I'm absolutely sure that I have at least an hour a day that can be devoted to hard exercise, mental and physical. Unworked smart dogs are, IMO, worse than unworked high-energy not-so-smart ones--the smart ones will figure out how to amuse themselves, usually at the owner's expense!

Kiko said...

I'll second the suggestion about rescues that don't remove aggresive dogs from the adoptive ranks. I once had a VERY nice family who already had one Wheaten Terrier adopt a second one from a local shelter. They were advised that this dog had been returned TWICE before for aggression, and they came to see me immediately after picking the dog up from the shelter. I had a very frank discussion with them about how *I* feel about aggressive dogs--it isn't something you're going to train out of them or cure since it isn't abnormal behavior, and that it is something you have to learn to live around and deal with every minute of every day.

The dog was very nice in my exam room, and the family felt that they "needed" to save this dogsince he'd now be their third home. I told them they did not need to save the world, and that if this dog went after one of their kids they should absolutely feel no guilt about euthanizing him.

Three days later this dog trapped the female owner in the bathroom. For 3 hours. Due to the how the contract had been drawn up by the shelter he went back to them (boomerang!)

I know that this isn't the most popular stance, but I do think that dogs who are going to be aggressive to humans on a regular basis should be euthanized. I would much rather euthanize a dog than see someone's kid on the 6 o'clock news.

melodiousaphony said...

Kiko,

Very few people are equip to deal with human-aggressive dogs and since they are few and far between, I can't say I disagree with your stance on euthanasizing them. My only desired qualification is the separation between dog-dog aggression and dog-human aggression, as they are different (as I've probably waxed on too often). As someone who had to scream for her (ex) boyfriend to get his dog to let her out of the bathroom, I am *not* a fan of any dog that shows true aggression toward a human. [I have to say "true" because my aunt's dog was stepped on by someone with a walking cast and nipped at the cast, have to admit if someone stepped full on my leg, I'd nip too].

tielz said...

melodious and II, KUDOS to both of you! :)

I just want to add/clear up to the aggression discussion. I have worked rare breeds that were bred for protection, both of humans and my flocks when I farmed.
These are balanced dogs (when properly bred and raised) that are safe family dogs that will take on a man one on one to protect you or in the case of the LGD's, they will take on predators.
I have no use for a dog on dog aggressive dog nor for a fear biting/bad temperament human aggressive dog. I am not a fan of a handler aggressive dog, but some handlers love them.
I would have NO other dog. No terriers, no crossbreds, no AKC or show line ANYTHING.
These dogs are bred for heart, obedience and chutzpa. They are work, dedication, work, responsibility, but once trained, are an absolute dream to live with. Not all of them need to do bitework, so any other job can redirect their drive. I agree that most of the public is best kept away from these hard dogs (and thankfully are), but I do stand firm on knowing that dogs that will protect you against a human attacker have their place and are some of the best that I have shared my life with. :)
The story that blows peoples minds is of my Czech/DDR shepherd who had his tail stepped on my my neighbor riding her horse, stripping the last 6 or 7 inches of skin and hair straight from the bone. I did not notice until I was feeding him when we got back from the ride and he stood there at the door wagging his tail and blood flew all over. I asked him for a down and held the tail in my hand with no restraint on the dog and cleaned it up/wrapped it for the night (it was close to midnight). It was amputated at the vet the next morning, but he NEVER showed any form of aggression to me or anyone else trying to help him. All of the balanced working dogs I worked respected me as the alpha, hands down, without a constant challenge and absolutely NO handler aggression (like cutsie pootsie terriers can have!). With the wrong breeding/raising who knows how he would have reacted. :)

Sarah said...

"My only desired qualification is the separation between dog-dog aggression and dog-human aggression, as they are different"

Two issues:

1) Practically speaking, dog-aggression leads to humans being bitten, often badly and often not in the 'oops' mistake of an aroused dog biting a hand that's stuck into a dogfight.

2) Even if DA was completely divorced from HA, it would still be a major problem because the victims are dogs. I do not understand the attitude dog people have about DA being not a big deal. Dog people who would wet themselves if they heard about an apartment building evicting a guy with a pit bull, or a teenager setting a puppy on fire, somehow find it acceptable to shrug off DA as if the victims are not dogs.

We're just pretending that dogs who get attacked by other dogs are somehow to blame, that the attacker was 'just being a dog' or 'simply the way humans created his breed' Dogs who get attacked are 'soft' and 'weak' and 'isn't it a shame that people confuse DA with human-aggression?'

Sarah said...

Another suggestion for topics is the renewed use of 'mutt' in a disparaging way with the whole 'designer dog' issue. I've been reading more and more stories where people in rescue and shelter and activist roles are saying, disgustedly, things like "It's crazy to spend $1500 for a mutt." I understand where they're coming from, but apart from the fact that they're remaking what has become a term of affection back into the slur it originally was, it's misleading and undoing some of the work of the last 20 years in educating people about pet stores and making people understand that a dog isn't a wonderful, healthy, sane specimen simply because it has an AKC registration. A whole lot of purebred dogs aren't worth anything, based on their health and temperament and/or conformation.

Sola said...

Rescueweary: The thing is, you can keep a dog-aggressive dog seperate from other dogs. You can not take it places where other dogs will be (exercise in yard, etc.) and you can train such a dog to tolerate other dogs or ignore them in public places as long as contact isn't made. A dog-aggressive dog that is NOT human aggressive is not a danger to people.

Dog aggression is something it is important to tell potential adopters about, and I would divert resources to non-aggressive dogs before I would work to rescue a dog-aggressive one, but I don't think that all dog-aggressive dogs should be unadoptable for that reason.

And I have seen plenty of cases where the attacked dog WAS at fault. Any dog that goes cannoning into another dog is, to my mind, at fault. A dog that continually tries to display dominance over a dog that has already made it clear that it is annoyed is at fault. A loose dog or one on a flexi-lead that goes running up to a dog that is under control of its owner--the owner of the loose dog is at fault. I have seen all of these situations and the dogs who got attacked were being rude by canine standards and badly needed to be trained. Did they deserve to be attacked? No--but they were at fault as well as the biting dog.

(Another rant I'd like to see--flexi-leads. I HATE them. I rarely see them used responsibly, and they don't give any control to the owner. There's FAR too much lead granted to most dogs as well--dogs shouldn't need to be twenty or thirty feet from their owners in any situation when they are required to be on leash.)

And re: mutts, I call my own beloved terrier cross a mutt all the time. I have also been one of those people who says "there's no way I would pay X amount for a mutt!" Doesn't make me love my MUTT any less! Words can have different connotations in different contexts. (Of course, I wouldn't pay $1500 for a poorly-bred purebred either.)

Unknown said...

I'm new to here, great site, i found it through the FUGLY horse site.

I would really like to see the Designer dog market addressed. I'm a very small breeder of Springer Spaniels. I have one breeding bitch at any given time who produces one litter a year. I test hips, eyes, blood, and i prove my dogs in the field before i ever consider breeding. And yet...a neighbor bought a puggle a few months back. She paid an exorbiant price for him...why? He's a "new" breed. *bangs head against wall*

melodiousaphony said...

"Even if DA was completely divorced from HA, it would still be a major problem because the victims are dogs. I do not understand the attitude dog people have about DA being not a big deal."

I don't think it's not a big deal I just think it's something that is manageable rather than something that should render a dog unadaptable. Not saying such a dog ought to be adopted out to just anyone, but should be given more a chance than those displaying human aggression with a responsible adopter. If someone allowed their known aggressive dog off leash in the presense of other dogs and a dog was attacked, I think it is a HORRID offense.

And I think that does make a great lead into Flexi-leashes... I agree completely Sola. Every time I see a dog turn a corner seconds before the owner, on a Flexi-Leash, I cringe because those dogs are (in my experience) often yappy, nasty, somewhat aggressive little beasts with owners that look in HORROR when they turn to see my lab/pit/sharpie/whatever bully looking dog sitting patiently waiting for them to pass. (I make her sit and wait when I see dogs that are not quite "passable" on the street/I know the owner isn't in control).

L.L. said...

I also use the term "mutt" and in exactly the way described. Mixed breed dogs are mutts, and I have 2 of them from a BC rescue. They are siblings and are BC/Bull Terrier mutts. And I paid $215 each, that included all vaccinations, spaying/neutering, teeth done, nails clipped, and microchipping. I'll continue to call all the designer dogs "mutts" because that's exactly what they are and people who are paying exorbitant prices need to wake the hell up. It's just keeping BYBs in business, and GREAT business at that. Now they don't even have to seek out a same-breed dog to get a litter. Sheesh.

I also tend to agree on there being a difference in DA and HA -- there ARE a lot of things you can do to safely control a dog that has some amount of DA, but I wouldn't have an HA dog in my home - - too much can go wrong, it's dangerous for all concerned. I do own a Boston female who does not like other dogs (I have 2 Bostons, one male and one female but don't worry - - both are fixed). She's rather small, but will make it known to visiting dogs that she does not want them near her and will launch herself at them if they don't back off. Since my dogs never leave my property except to go to the vet on a rare occasion, I have no problem with this. Her interactions with visiting dogs is in my house and I let the owner of the other dog know that if their dog has no manners, they will need to keep it leashed in the house if it starts annoying this dog. She's 7 years old and I'm less worried about her DA than her propensity to go after raccoons.

Sola said...

Mine was $175, with the same perks. From a no-kill foster-based rescue, no less. (Another dislike of mine--kennel-based no-kill shelters. Not only do they shunt more of the loads onto local kill shelters, giving dogs as a whole less time, it's too easy for dogs to go insane in there.) He did come with an infected neuter scar and a "flea allergy" that turned out to be a food allergy, though. Bonus: no shedding, so I got the main thing that these oodle people shell out so much for into the bargain! Of course he's allergic to about a dozen things, including several backyard weeds that he browses on at will, he has chronic diarrhea despite being on a very good kibble (Eagle Pack, not Iams or something similar) and his coat is fairly oily--but hey, he doesn't shed! That makes him worth thousands of dollars! Or not, since someone apparently thought little enough of him to dump him on a highway.

And someone came into my clinic talking about her "high-priced mutt" of a goldendoodle today. At least she knew he was a mutt! *rolls eyes* When we were looking for my boy, the one stipulation was that the dog could not shed and had to be an adult--so we looked for poodle crosses and terrier crosses in SHELTERS. There were loads and loads that were in desperate need of homes out there. Why do people need to breed them?

colorisnteverything said...

Flexi-leads are a small dog owner's nightmare. They scare the living daylights out of my mother when she walks our shih-tzu. He's very, very submissive and never acts "rudely", but he is easy pray and doesn't try to defend himself. There are many people in our town with uncontrollable, very eager dogs on flexi-leads. It's like walking your dog on a piece of floss. Our dog has a short lead because he gets excited about walking and on a flexi-lead he would be going everywhere looking at EVERYTHING.

One girl on campus here had a brand new puppy (which I am sure she bought at the "puppy sale" in the mall in a store I will not lend patronage to) and she was walking this german shepard puppy on a leash. He was adorable no doubt (they always are), but he didn't have lead manners yet and she had no control over him. Those things are very dangerous.

Why do they appeal so much to new owners who know NOTHING about having a dog? What's worse is when the dog gets loose. It will run FROM the noise of that stupid leash holder. Our greyhound contract specifically read that we were NOT allowed to use any form of a retractable leash because of the risk of the dog getting loose and taking off.

Our dog never got loose, but I have no doubt that if she had, a retractable leash would have made her flight instinct worse.

L.L. said...

New owners get the flexi-leashes because they are manufactured and marketed to folks who want to "let their dog have some freedom" and to less-knowledgeable dog owners. Simple as that. Obviously, they must be doing a great business. I wouldn't use one, but lots of people do, and there is a "stop" feature that will keep the lead at a designated length on most. Unfortunately, most people that have these things don't use that feature.

I haven't walked any of our dogs for the past 10 years, as we are in the country and we just open the door and out they go when they need to pee/poop or just run around. When we were in town, we also had a greyhound and we never walked her on a lead after the first 4 months. She moved out to the country with us and loved it, room to run BIGGER circles. The flexi-lead dragging behind her wouldn't have bothered her in the least and I think there are probably plenty of dogs who wouldn't have a flight response to this. Some yes, but many that wouldn't.

I just think that when I see someone with one of those things stretched completely out, and then their dog tangles around their legs with it, that it would be a hazard to the human. I also understand how it would be a hazard to others walking dogs. But they must have made a bazillion off this product.

Sola said...

"and there is a "stop" feature that will keep the lead at a designated length on most."

Yes, and if the dog really pulls, most dogs can break past it. It isn't effective at all.

Gracie said...

Re the sled dog industry. At my monthly rescue meeting a few days ago, we learned of 13 huskies who were in need of temporary shelter untill the owner goes to court and it is decided if he/she gets the dogs back. If you would like I will keep you updated on these dogs and if our rescue ends up with any of them.

tielz said...

Panamared,

A wholehearted THANK YOU for being a responsible breeder of your breed. It is the breeders like you that will hopefully keep the breeds true to type, healthy and working. :)

citydog said...

The woman who started it wanted a friendly, larger, non-allergenic dog. That's just what the "Doodles" are.

No. They are not. It's certainly what they are marketed as, and *some* of them luck out at the genetic crapshoot and end up that way, but there are a remarkable number of ill-tempered and/or shedding "Doodles" out there. A first cross does not a "breed" make, nor does it make for consistent get.

As for working breeds ending up in shelter, of course they do. As do the actual working *lines* of working breeds. Not every dog from every litter of stellar working BC, say, parents is going to be the next trial champion any more than every dog in every litter of conformation champs is going to win Westminster. Sometimes you get a dud. And there are plenty of working dog breeders who crank out litter after litter hoping for that one spectacular dog, and have neither the circumstances nor inclination to take them back. (And yes, they suck.)

Malinois were teh hot "new" working dog several years ago. Folks were importing them from Europe and breeding tons of them in hopes of cashing in on the huge sums police departments were paying (Mals are generally healthier than GSDs). Well they are super high drive dogs (think working BC lines but inclined to use their teeth a whole lot more). Police depts. were too used to GSDs and started switching back. There were all these Mals that were too much dog to do much as purely pets, but didn't have the proper combination of drive and temperament to fit into sport of even working homes. They end up (too often misidentified as GSDx) at shelters, they end up dead.

citydog said...

Personally, I love Flexis, although there is quite a learning curve. They are marvelous for early recall work and for exercising a dog in a field or something (if the dog has a "wait" command installed and the handler is a good runner you can get a decent game of frisbee going with a 26 foot one :) ).

I forbid them in my classes, and want to beat senseless (with their very own Flexi!) any person who uses them in a crowd or in a sidewalk/walking in a straight line situation.

I have used them since I lived in Germany (where they are from) for over 20 years, and have *never* experienced a dog--always on the proper size Flexi for its weight--"run through the stop" button as other posters have mentioned. That said, many of the other knockoff brands that I have seen are utter crap, and it wouldn't surprise me if those were the ones with the iffy stops.

As with many things, they are a useful tool in the right (skilled) hands, and a potential danger when they are not.

PapSett said...

Another issue that I have had a personal problem with is rescue organizations that are not entirely honest with the adoptors.

All my life, I have wanted a Bloodhound. I think they are adorable, and have done a lot of research on the breed, including contact with represenatives of the national breed club. I am fully aware that they are not a 'beginners' breed, but then, I am not a beginner dog owner, I have owned and shown Gordon Setters since 1982. (Want a challenge? Put an obedience title on a Gordie!)

Two years ago, I finally contacted a Bloodhound rescue, and found what I thought was the perfect Bloodiefor me. He was three years old, and when I went to pick him up there was an instant connection with up. Jake wanted to be MY dog. I brought him home, and introduced him to the rest of the family- an adult Gordon bitch, a 5 month old Gordon boy, 2 adult Papillons, and 2 adult cats. All went smoothly. My neutered tom cat told him who the boss of the house was, and Jake didn't challenge.

But as the days passed, there came a change in Jake. He became very possessive of me, growling if any of the other dogs came near me, which I corrected immeditely. 95% of the time, he was the sweetest, most loving dog you can imagine. When I was at the computer, he would stand behind me with his chin on my shoulder and kind of hum, making a purr-like sound on his throat. BUT.. there were issues. Food issues, for one, he was VERY food aggressive. I had to be VERY careful not to pass out treats or have chewies around. I had to feed him alone in a kennel, and he would even growl at me if I came near him while there was food arouns.

All this was things I would have been willing to work through, but one evening, Jake woke up from a deep sleep on the dog bed, and I swear I have never seen anything like him at that moment. His eyes had a green glaze, and his motions were stiff and stilted. 130 lbs. of angry dog zeroed in on my female Papillon(who was just going to get a drink of water) and he went after her. I threw myself between them and pushed her under the desk, and Jake turned on me. I am a large woman, and it took every ounce of my strength to haul him to his crate, keeping a death-grip on his collar to keep him from getting hold of me. I called the rescue coordinator at once, and she calmly told me that oh yeah, he had done that a couple times before while she fostered him, had killed a cat and a small dog, and they suspected he had sudden rage syndrome, which is common in Bloodhounds.

WTF????

Why wasn't I told of this? A potentially dangerous neurological condition... and the adoptor was not told???

As much as it broke my heart, I could see no way to keep this dog, not knowing when this was going to happen again. Had it been just ME, I would have likely chanced it, but I was not going to put my other dogs at risk, nor did I feel that he was safe to rehome, so I did one of the hardest things I have ever done, and had him euthanised. I miss him still, even tho he was a part of my life for a short time. He was a sweet, silly, goofy boy who had the mosfortune of being poorly bred, and he paid the ultimate price for a BYB's greed.

L.L. said...

Wow that's quite the tail of the bloodhound. Thank you for doing the right thing for the dog by choosing euth.

PapSett said...

Thanks for the support, this is something that still haunts me. Jake deserved better.

Sarah said...

Flexi leads, ugh. I rarely see them anymore, though leashless is as popular as ever. They offer zero control over an aroused dog over 20lbs. They're a bit dangerous for little dogs, too. I had a friend who nearly lost a Yorkie to a hawk who figured, hey, that teeny dog is a safe 20' from the human... Yorkie looked up just in time and set a land speed record for mom's arms.

Papsett, what a terrible story. The rescue should have had the guts and the decency to euthanize, not rehome with the absolute certainty of causing more pain and grief. Maybe that's another possible topic - required licensing of animal rescues, so they can be held to some kind of standard.

pomgeranium said...

here's a "great" pomeranian and "designer dog" breeder www.cjmshouseofpoms.com

Jax said...

Moontoad, you need you own forum too!
While ya'll are talking about bodyslamming labs (I know goldens who do the same thing) I need you to help me talk my boss out of getting two goldens or labs, or one of each..any combination of these two dogs, please!
Someone has offered a 5 month old German Shepherd for free, but without knowing its termperment I couldn't say if its a good alternative..someone told them he'd make a good apartment dog. Not.
She definately would ADOPT not BUY a dog, but I just...I can't handle any more brainless labs or goldens! half my pet sitting clients have them and they are all schizoid! Barking incessantly for no reason, too stupid to play fetch, jumping all over and bodyslamming you! I can't take any more! What are some good arguments AGAINST golden retrievers and labs?
Also note, two small children in house hold, 5 and 2 (one with special physical needs) both very active children who love to hang all over animals. Horses, cats, chickens, and lots of strangers on property. What kind of dog CAN handle this? (Mine doesn't! At least not the strangers...!)

Jax said...

Papsett, thank you for proving I am not insane. I had a cocker with Sudden Rage when I was a kid, and when I try to explain it to people they think I'm making it up. ::shakes head::

Sarah said...

"What are some good arguments AGAINST golden retrievers and labs?"

Bear in mind I have not owned either breed, and have a certain amount of dislike for labs based on years of being run at by free-roaming individuals (the lab owner's motto is apparently "They're such great family dogs, so they don't need a leash or a fence")

1) They're water dogs, and when they get wet, they get WET. Be prepared to get wet too, and have wet furniture, children, rugs, car, etc., for your dog's entire life. My neighbor's lab broke down doors to get out when he heard our hose (across the street, at least several hunndred feet away) being turned on in the summer.

2) They're big dogs. 50lbs+, which means kids are not going to be walking them safely unless they're atypically quiet individuals. Most labs and goldens are pullers by nature; friendly, enthusiastic pullers with a lot of bulk behind them to drag a kid off his/her feet.

3) They shed like devils. Those fine short hairs are like a cat's for getting everywhere.

"Also note, two small children in house hold, 5 and 2 (one with special physical needs) both very active children who love to hang all over animals. Horses, cats, chickens, and lots of strangers on property. What kind of dog CAN handle this? (Mine doesn't! At least not the strangers...!)"

My childhood dog was a Bearded Collie (unusual shelter dog) who coped with every single goofy thing in my household (8 people, a tomcat who tried to remove her nose continually, an autistic child, visitors, animal-stupid people, etc.) with aplomb. She never bit, never so much as growled at anyone; would bark but not bite at strangers, and mothered everything in her path. Perfect size for children to handle - 35lbs soaking wet (males are a bit larger) and very gentle. Much smaller and lighter than many 'family' dogs, but with very forgiving, loving temperament. Drawbacks are a very care-intensive coat and that collie bark, as well as a lot of energy.

Sola said...

My forty-pound mutt can, and I'm willing to bet that any other sturdily-built breed or cross could as well. I don't recommend parents letting their offspring hang all over Fido, etc. but I don't think that all families with small children should be banned from keeping dogs either, and having a sturdy, tolerant dog means that keeping Fluffy and the kids is that much safer. Bad behavior with the dog IS going to happen at first with small kids, and while it is the parents' responsiblity to teach the children to behave nicely to the dog, any dog going into a home with small kids is going to need to be able to tolerate some of the things they do.

Young Labs, in my opinion, are exactly the wrong breed for a family situation with this age of kids. (By "young," I mean "under four or five.") The younger Labs I know are all very rambunctious, jumpy, and clumsy--EXACTLY the sort of dogs that will continually knock over young children without meaning to out of enthusiasm. The kids will not have fun with such a dog and I am willing to bet that with multiple small children, she will not have the time to exercise and train the dog properly--in fact, one of the clients at the vet clinic where I work is in this situation, with three small children and an eight-month-old Lab puppy that she's been unable to take to classes. Thankfully, she's decided that there is a problem and has hired a trainer to make home visits to help her work with the puppy, but even so it's not a good situation for anyone as of now.

I would suggest that your boss go to a rescue along with a dog-savvy person or a trainer and choose an older (four years or older), medium-sized to large (40+ pounds), stockily built dog. Honestly, the giant breeds seem to do well in this sort of situation; a well-trained Dane might be a great candidate for this lady. She might even do okay with an _older_ Lab or Lab cross; they tend to suddenly run out and become very forbearing, excellent little-kid dogs once they hit middle age. I wouldn't suggest a puppy for her, though.

Do tell her that acquiring two dogs at once is a bad idea. It's difficult to properly train two dogs simultaneously, and it's also very difficult to form a solid bond between two dogs at once. With two small children as well, including a special-needs child, there's not a chance she's going to have enough time to start two dogs at once.

Re: SRS dogs: it is my firm belief that any Sudden Rage dog that ends up in rescue should be euthanized, period. They are not safe to be around and it is unfair to prospective adopters and their families to have one foisted upon them. I am so sorry for your bad experience, Papsett.

(IS SRS a problem in Bloodhounds? I hadn't heard that. I have heard of it being problematic in Bull Terriers, American Cockers, and especially English Springers, but never Bloodhounds.)

Jax said...

RescueWeary, you have the exact same thoughts about labs that I do.
Our neighbors (also one of my clients) have one who constantly runs away from home. They've found him five miles away running down the middle of the street with another dog from our neighborhood, a BC who's people don't take good care of him. I wish we could adopt the BC (they've offered to give him to us) but I'm afraid that even after neutering he's become too used to just roaming the neighborhood at will and we'd never keep him at home.
She wants to get two dogs because someone told her they'd keep themselves company. Since my dog practically lives on the property as well, plus the kids, and the other friendly dogs that come visit, I doubt one pup will be lonely. She wants a puppy because she thinks (lord help her) that her oldest is old enough to start learning the responsibility of raising an animal. And because puppies are so damned cute.
For the record, i think if my dog had come to me first instead of getting bounced around a few times before I got her she might have been the perfect dog, but previous owners gave her some serious trust issues. She hates men (I suspect she was beaten..something about eating the couch, hwhich I don't believe because she's not much of a chewer) wants to eat our vet, and doesn't like being touched on the hind end (which is where Emily likes to hang) She is good about having ears pulled, and she would rather run away than fight when it comes to incessant children, so thankfully snapping hasn't been too much of an issue. As far as I can tell she's an Aussie Cattle/Great Dane cross, about 70lbs, big ears, and spots.

Jax said...

randomness. ASPCA survey: Where did you get your dog?
http://tinyurl.com/2l22jb

MNaef said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Viatecio said...

I just wanted to chime in on the Flexi thing and express my gratitude that I'm not the only one out there who hates them! Yes, they can be useful for confinement during a game of Frisbee or letting a dog have free run in an unfenced area...but otherwise, they are useless hunks of plastic and fabric. I absolutely despise how they are advertised as well: make walks easier, less pulling, more freedom, yadda yadda...if you're having all those problems with your dog, the last thing it needs is freedom. A dog that pulls on a 6-ft leash will STILL pull on a Flexi, except this time it will be 20-30 ft out!

I read the comments about the "Golden Labs" with interest...I have a true golden retriever/Labrador cross who we adopted from the shelter. He has the body structure of the golden retriever with the shorter hair of the Lab. What people don't understand is that "yellow" Labs come in every shade, from dark gold to almost white.

And to add to the aggression part, when we adopted him, the shelter didn't tell us (or perhaps they didn't know?) that he was possessive-aggressive! Of course it didn't help that I was trying to raunch a ball from his mouth when he turned and bit me (him at 7 months old and myself in grade 7), but I knew that it was either boot camp or back to the shelter. We found a trainer (fortunately not the one recommended by our vet who told us to shove lunch meat into the dog's face each time he growled at us), put him through canine military school and he has been a registered therapy dog for years now. Granted, our case isn't the worst out there, but that's the story anyway. And because of it, I've been interested in behavior since then, from general obedience to Schutzhund.

ive said...

Hello, I wanted to start off by saying that I love this website and everything that it stands for. Here are some of the things that I would like for someone to comment about, perhaps not only on this board, but many free classified ad postings in the pets section. (kijiji.ca is a big one)
1. Pedigrees and the importance of looking at them when purchaseing a puppy/dog
2. I love the idea of exploiting breeders with poor ethics......( i met an Alaskan Malmute "reputable breeder" that told me that breeding 2 dogs, that shared the same mother, was fine and was a healthy tactic used by many breeders)
3. PLEASE someone post on kijiji about everything poodle/doodle.....i cant stand when i see labradoodles going for $1000+++ with no kind of health testing
4. MYTHS - When breeders are posting "hypoallergetic" "allergy free dog" when they talk about poodle crosses especially when they say they will have no shedding. Both of these claims ARE false and is no garuntee that the dog will not agrivate allergies or shed.

Gracie said...

So am I right in assuming that a "Golden Lab" is a Golden retriever/lab mix? Cause if so I guess thats what I have. I got her for free out of the back of a pick up truck after someones dog got pregnant by the lacal lab. She is a wonderful dog but I would not have paid any more than a reasonable adoption fee for my wonderful mutt.
I also want to know why is it that people do not know how insanly wild labs can be? I had no idea untill I started rescuing and ended up with a few of them. People see older labs and think they are so wonderful but what they don't know is that you have to survive that first 3 years with them first. And yes our shelter is full of about 75% labs or lab mixes. Just cause its a lab doesnt mean that is is going to be like the dog down the street that is older, spayed/neutered and trained. Labs take work and lots of it.

Jax said...

thank you AJ! I should just copy-paste and print all these comments about labs and anonymously leave them lying around the barn..hm.

L.L. said...

"Also note, two small children in house hold, 5 and 2 (one with special physical needs) both very active children who love to hang all over animals. Horses, cats, chickens, and lots of strangers on property. What kind of dog CAN handle this? (Mine doesn't! At least not the strangers...!)"

We have 4 dogs and they tolerate all of that. We don't have small children, but we have friends that do and our dogs are fine with them - - one little turd was even slapping my smallest Boston and it was tolerated. You can bet that little turd was STOPPED by me as soon as I saw it though. The mom was standing right there and apparently thought it was cute. I have an annual Christmas party with up to 50 people here and the dogs are fine. We have folks in and out all the time, 1 indoor cat and a few barn cats (and a litter in the spring usually) and they are good with the cats, and we have 8 horses. 2 of our dogs are BC/Bull terrier mixes we got from a rescue and the other 2 are Boston Terriers. Ages are from 3 years old now, up to the oldest Bost (got him from the local pound in 1994) who is now 15+. But we're into training our dogs and not allowing any bad behavior to develop. They are a peaceful pack.

Hey, what is up with the blogger? Hope everything is ok, I hope to see now topics soon....

Jax said...

I was just about the ask the same thing I.I...or is the L.L? We miss you, Moony, hope everything is alright on the home front!
I'm at the people with the Lab and Golden's house now. Get this, they've started keeping the dogs in the basement because they don't like all the dog hair around the baby.
???!!!???
You can just IMAGINE how the dog I've described is behaving after being in the basement all afternoon, WOW.
Since we've nothing else to do but talk about random things around here right now, someone give me your take on this:
My dog is probably the best behaved dog I personally know (that alone I find a little frightening! lol) but she only listens to me. I mean not even VAGUELY thinks about listening to anyone else. She is completely submissive to me and would lay down and show her belly if I asked her to even if someone elses dog was careening around out of control nearby. If I didn't check her though she would be ALL OVER that dog. She doesn't like barkers or dogs who careen around wildly. The weird thing is that I get the feeling that she feels like she needs to be in charge of everyone else except me and the select few people she considers friends. The feeling I get is that she thinks she's my enforcer, and she has to tell everyone else what to do for me. Does that make any sense?
Cesar Milan would probably lable her a dominant/insecure dog.

Gracie said...

We have an enforcer at our house too. My Golden retriever is the dominant in teh back yard and our little mongrel is her body guard. Jenny, the golden, eats and Luna, the mongrel polices to make sure my current foster doens't bother her. In return Jenny lets Luna eat. The fosters I have to feed seperatly. It is something I am working on but its slow going. Luna is not as well behaved as your dog is though. She was a rescue that I decided to keep and it is taking a while to work through her issues. She is still terrified of men and feels that she has to protect everyone and everything from strange people or dogs. I honestly don't think she would ever bite anyone but she sure sounds vicious. Strange dogs on the other hand she would not hesitate to attack if they were willing to fight her.

2ters said...

Jax,

Ugh.

People like that just shouldn't have dogs. What a disaster.

Besides, haven't they read the studies that say that being around pets can make them less allergic later on?

http://www.webmd.com/allergies/news/19000101/pets-may-protect-children-allergies

Jax said...

I just don't get why people make decisions like that, either, 2ters. They had two kids before this one and never considered the dogs a problem then! Besides, if you vacuum regularly I don't see how the dog hair would be much or a problem anyway. Yeesh. Well, While I'm here they have free roam since the isn't a baby to bother anyway!

Glad to hear Pie isn't the only 'Enforcer' dog. I'd never seen that type of behaviour before and it was very strange to me. Its not the same as when they're just being protective of you. I still think its hilarious when she gets mad at Hazzard for barking too much and growls him down.

Sola said...

Jax: I've actually seen that sort of behavior in dog parks before, too--one person will lean down to pet a strange dog, and that person's dog will walk over and shove the strange dog out of the way, or a fight/rough play will break out and an uninvolved dog will go over and bark at the tussling dogs. I think it's a personality thing as much as a training thing, but she does seem a little insecure.

And boy does your boss sound like a non-dog person--doesn't she know that exposure to pet hair in infancy will make it LESS likely for baby to contract pet allergies or asthma?

Jax said...

She's definately insecure, but she's gotten better. She still barks at my Boss's husband after two years. I guess seeing him on the weekends isn't enough! Most of the people who board at our barn she has gotten to know well enough that she only barks when they arrive, and once I acknowledge them she's fine. She doesn't like men though!

bawaffle said...

I apologize for posting a link to this site, but I think it surely fits "puppy mill" criteria. I have been keeping an eye on this mill for a while and it sickens me. This lady is surely breeding Merles to Merles and selling them as a unique color. Not only is she producing a sickening amount of puppies, but some of them are far from breed standard. I would love to see this breeder spotlighted on one of your blogs! She should be stopped and not aloud to own any dogs. Please have a look!Thanks
http://windyhillaussies.com/litters.html

Irantfordays said...

TWENTY-EIGHT litters! WTF!

Sarah said...

That Aussie site would be disgusting even if it wasn't a mill. Some of those dogs are very nearly dwarfs. Bad enough people persist in maintaining dwarfed breeds from the past, but creating a new version from a joyously athletic dog like an Aussie is vile.

Sarah said...

I was inspired to look for a less obvious problem breeder, so I tried googling Cane Corso kennels. I chose the breed because IME people who breed/buy the big "macho" breeds, especially the more unusual ones, are often super-serious (ie, "Vladimir Antonivich Roman War Dog is a trained police dog with several European championships and a stunning conformation") and that's dangerously convincing if you're not really paying attention. Which a lot of people clearly aren't, busy as they are fantasizing about owning a dog larger than their car.

And I found this: Sapri Corsos.
http://www.sapricorso.com The site is gorgeous, the dogs look ok, there aren't 30 litters on the ground. But - the claims about the breeding dogs are vague, the kennel advertises on sites like Next Day Pets, and best of all, I found this brouhaha on a Cane Corso forum
http://www.ccaaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1381

It seems the kennel owner is lying about standing 4 studs (thank God, right?), stealing photos of other people's dogs to claim as his own, and other dicey behaviors. Which all screams very loudly that he's selling exclusively to uninformed and unsuitable homes. Let's get that straight - he's selling huge, very potentially lethal guard dogs to people who can't google his phone number and find the out that their would-be puppy is probably sired by someone other than who it says on the registration papers. Sad as puppy milled spaniels are, and as vicious as the people who produce them are, this guy and his dogs are really scary.

Viatecio said...

rescueweary, you just reminded me...

Another topic I'd like to see covered here is the proliferation of shrunken-down, dwarfed breeds: here's looking at the "toy cattle dog" like what was on that Windy Hill Aussies page and the Alaskan Klee Kai.

There's a reason a breed was made and it wasn't bred to be shrunken down as a glorified lap dog. If I want a malamute, heaven knows I'll wait to be financially secure and have enough space for one rather than buckle down and get a mini one. If a breed has a miniature component (poodles, schnauzers, etc), then I will consider the toy/minis. But something like that...no.

(I have to admit that I'm a bit biased, I do love the larger breeds but I have met splendid specimens of smaller/toy breeds. It's unfortunate that people make them into such 'children' and don't teach them manners, they can be truly wonderful pets.)

Irantfordays said...

finished the new rant on breed evolution. Would like to get the opinions for or against the show style dogs etc.

http://rantsfordogs.blogspot.com/

Mom of former mill dogs said...

I'd love to see the problem of dog auctions addressed. They are becoming big in our state and as the foster home of 2 dogs bought (for a measly $25 at auction), one of which is the most scared 2 year old mill dog I've ever seen.

Jax said...

I saw a lot of pups with white ears and such on that Aussie page, isn't that what causes the deafness/blindness problems and stuff? and wtf, a 20 lb aussie? I saw a mini aussie pup at a horse show this summer, have to admit it was FRICKING ADORABLE, but I still don't see the point. Just buy a damned chihuahua, people, and get over it.

Random question, feel free to poke me in the ear with a q-tip if I'm stupid, but do Border Collies only come in black and white? I thought they did, which is why I'm thinking Pie's friend Bandit is BC/Aussie cross or something, because he has the brown eye marks and brown shading on his legs, otherwise b/w.

Irantfordays said...

No border collies come in other colours. However the 'red' and white has always been kind of looked down on because of myths thinking they would be less effective guarding the flock.

There were all sorts of crazy myths and dogs with one blue eye and one normal were preferred due to some weird thing. You know what let me look it up again.


The first one I think discuses myths and why people preferred certain colours.
http://www.gis.net/~shepdog/BC_Museum/Permanent/BC_Looks_Health.html
http://www.bordercolliecolors.com/
http://www.bordercolliesociety.com/index_breedcolor.htm

Sola said...

The thing about white ears causing deafness is and isn't true. Simply having white ears won't automatically make a dog deaf, but if the inner ear's hairs have no pigment (i.e., THEY'RE white) the dog will be deaf. Therefore it's safer to either pick a dog with pigmented ears or a dog of a breed in which "white" is actually silver (washed-out red/tan) like Schnauzers or white GSDs.

There's a reason that the fur around the ears are one of the last things to go white on a piebald dog. When was the last time you saw a piebald dog with white ears?

Commenting on the dogs--there doesn't look like there's any Aussie at ALL in that one Gabby bitch who is up for adoption. And Romeo looks all BC. I noticed several "harlequin" pups as well. I wasn't aware this gene was present in merles of anything but Danes and Catahoulas--any Aussie people care to enlighten me?

Sarah said...

Re: Border Collie colors. Don't they also come in merle? Not as common, but I thought that was also a possible color pattern. I've been pouring over BC and Bearded Collie books and websites forever, trying to decide either/both for my mix :)

Speaking of which, a fun less-serious topic for any dog blog would be the drive of mix owners to figure out What Breed(s) Are In My Dog.

bawaffle said...

harlequin is something I believe this breeder made up in her own mind to try to lure in ignorant people. She lists some of the pups as a unique color. There is nothing unique about breeding for undesirable traits by accident to get a beautiful color on purpose. I really wish this breeder would get busted. She sickens me! I feel really bad for the dogs. Feel free to e-mail the breeder and tell them they should stop contributing to the pet population with shotty, poorly bred dogs.

Sola said...

Bawaffle: No, her dogs actually do look like harlequins--the color is real! I knew it was present in Danes and Catahoulas, but didn't know it was present in Aussies. The harlequin gene works by taking a merled dog and washing the blue areas to white, so the dog is patched like a Holstein cow with irregular black patches all over--this pattern does NOT follow the more usual piebald rules (no piebald dog will have colored feet, spots tend to appear at the head and base of tail, etc.). That's why merle and Irish-white/Boston-marked Danes keep appearing with Harlequin litters; they aren't standard, but it's impossible to breed harlequin dogs without some Danes of those colors because you can't breed merle-to-merle and obviously not all Danes have the harlequin gene. (The boston-marked dogs are necessary because harlequin Danes are not supposed to have white on neck, etc. IIRC.) It's just not, so far as I know, a standard Aussie color.

Forgive me; dog genetics are a favorite topic of mine. :) But yes, breeding for unstandard colors and then charging more for the dogs is highly unethical IMO.

bawaffle said...

That is an interesting tidbit of information. I am alway s open to learning and thank you for that info. I do know that it is not a recognized color though. Really color is not such a big issue (whether it is accepted or not) because most people are just looking for a pet quality dog. However, when sight and hearing are impaired or lost all together as a result of trying to make a buck for unique color, I get peeved. Thanks for the genetic info!~

Sola said...

No problem--as I said, it's one of my major interests. :) I actually ran into a gorgeous harlequin Dane at the dog park this afternoon. She was fairly typical of harlequins in that she had a few small blue patches on her face that hadn't been bleached to white. (On the subject of unusual/off-standard colors, I would LOVE a fawnikin or fawn/merle Dane--but unfortunately no good breeder does the color crosses that result in such dogs because they're obviously unshowable. Ah, well. [/confession])

On the subject of double merles, the last dog on her for adoption page is almost certainly a double merle. White heads like that are VERY characteristic of the color. Talk about unethical! To me, there are only two colors in all of dogdom that there is absolutely no excuse for having in a dog: double merle and white Dobermans, since both are known to be highly detrimental to the dog's health in all cases.

Gracie said...

Well, my foster went to her new home yesterday so I picked up a new one today. She is (get this, lol) American bulldog crossed with a Collie. Lmao, just saying that makes me laugh. What a combination!

~CRUNCHBERRYS MOM~ said...

Irantfordays said...

Oh jesus oh jesus PLEASE do these two places PLEASE!

"pitbulls":
http://gottiline.com/

Ugliest rottweilers ever:
http://brittanysanimalkingdom.com/

If you need good examples of the breed to compare against:

APBT:
http://apbtconformation.com/

Rottweilers:
http://redwoodkrest.com/

October 24, 2007 10:08 AM


UGGGH. one of those 'fat cat' or whatever rotties seems to have a goiter on his neck. *gags*

~CRUNCHBERRYS MOM~ said...

Shannon said...

I work at a boarding kennel and I see EVERYTHING!!! The designer dogs, the poorly bred pure breds. I recently came across a very disturbing website...it has to be a puppymill, as she breeds every kind of designer dogs. I think the most disgusting mix was "Cujo is our Miniature Mastiiff type! Shockerd, (English Shepherd/Cocker), + Ori Pei, (Shar Pei + Pug) cross". She is breeding this cross w/ Saint Bernard/Cocker crosses to "create" Mini Saint Bernards. I would like to see you expose http://www.dakotawinds.homestead.
com/Puppies.html

October 25, 2007 9:50 PM


they were featured on Fugly Horse of the Day, too! they are cross-breeding ugly ass horses :(
go to their 'links' page and you'll see...

~CRUNCHBERRYS MOM~ said...

last year, we rescued (from certain death at the pound) a pit bull. we weren't told she had dog aggression, but i saw the signs as soon as she stepped from my truck. i have 4 pit bulls of my own (who all get along fine, and have for 5 years)

anyway, the rescue dog, Roxy, was unhappy, unhealthy, very scared and dog aggressive. she had been crated 24-7 for months. she was dirty and smelly, i'm sure you can imagine... the best thing about her was that she did like people,(even though she was terribly head-shy indicating she had been hit previously) so we had hope.

we kept her, vetted her, fed and played with her. taught her to walk on the leash, and eventually got her used to our lowest dog on the totem pole, Vinnie, our male. they became best friends!



rehoming her was easier than i thought it would be! a friend was going away (to VET SCHOOL in fact) and was buying a house there. she was going to be in a strange place all alone. perfect match! they come visit us when they can,and i get new pics all the time. they're a great pair.

rescuing troubled dogs isn't for everyone, but it worked out well in this one instance.

~CRUNCHBERRYS MOM~ said...

OH! and i did disclose the fact that Roxy was dog aggressive before Carolyn took her.

L.L. said...

Regarding the bulldog/collie mix: 2 of my dogs, siblings from a rescue organization, are the interesting mix of English Bull Terrier and Border Collie. They were an "accident".

smoothsailing said...

I have seen the problem of Pit Bulls being pushed off as other breeds and it does no good but continue to put the breed's rep in the toilet! I adopted a Pit Mix from a shelter and he is one of the greatest dogs I have ever had. The breed as a whole is not the vicious, child attacking breed that the news puts out. They have SOME aggressive tendancies if not properly handled, socialized and trained as puppies and in to adult hood. My dog gladly plays with my neices and nephews with the same ease as my labs. He is always very careful and they love him! He is a great example of a friendly Pit Bull. He wags his tail and will gladly give kisses to anyone who asks or wants to play.
I hope everyone will open their eyes and see the breed for what it is, a loving, devoted and fun dog! Any dog can be a mean dog if taught to be. I want to see you be nice after you have been taught to fight and bite anything that comes near you! Give the breed a chance!

Sola said...

l.l.--I know of at least two Bull Terrier/JRT crosses. That's one cross that's got to be a handful to live with!

I also know a very unusual-looking Sheltie/Golden/Shar Pei mix. She looks pretty much exactly like a Shar Pei in structure and her head--except her coat is gorgeous, fine, flowing gold with a few white markings and she has the long, flowing, feathered tail to match. Looks like goldfish fins on a piranha!

melodiousaphony said...

Is the owner of this blog okay? She seems to be MIA.

colorisnteverything said...

Moontoad... where are you?

That website with the Merles disgusts me. All the "puppies for sale" pictures are taken with Santa. Why after SO many years do people think it is a good idea to get a puppy for Christmas? Why people get puppies without kids is beyond me, but seriously, why for a HOLIDAY. The lady I know who does dog rescue says that by February every one is dumping dogs on them for various reasons and expecting her to say "sorry".

I'M sorry, but "Johnny got Fido for Christmas, but we just cannot potty train him. He chews on everything and poos everywhere and won't shut up. We just can't take it anymore!" does not deserve "sorry."

PapSett said...

Re: Sola asking about SRS in Bloodhounds: I was not aware of it until I adopted Jake, but thene after I spoke with the rescue coordinator after the attack, she told me it *is* known in the breed. I also spoke with someone at our local humane society after the fact and they said that they had had a Bloodie come in that had SRS, so it is evidently there.

On a sad note: I lost my beloved little Papillon boy Nov. 24. He had been diagnosed with an enlarged heart several weeks earlier, but the necication seemed to be doing the trick, he was picking up weight and back to his old self. The night before he died, he was strutting around the house modeling a light-up Christmas coat his Auntie bought him and had nibbles of his favorite food in the world, pizza.

The next morning he was showing signs of having trouble breathing, and I took him to the vet; they found fluid in his hungs and put him on medication for that. But when I got him hoime, about an hour later he went into full respiratiory and cardiac failure and died in my arms before I could get him to the emergency clinic.

I miss his little freckled face so very much.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v20/PapSett/My%20Babies/Jay_face.JPG

The irony of this is when I decided to get a toy dog, I narrowed it down to either a Cavalier King Charles or a Papillon, and went with the Pap because in my studies of the breeds, I found that Cavvies have a high instance of heart problems, and Paps were fairly healthy and long-lived.

He was only 10, far to young to have lost him.

Jax said...

Papsett, my condolences about your little Pappy :(

Another question about SRS...know of any other breeds its common in? A friend of my Boss's little boy was sledding at a friend's house last weekend and their dog attacked him. Apparently out of the blue, kids playing on the floor, dog laying somewhere in the corner, dog got up, walked over, circled the boy, growled and pounced. He needs facial reconstructive surgery. The mother of course wants the dog put down, the owner won't agree. For some bizarre reason AC isn't seizing the dog and is giving the people another chance. Shouldn't this dog at least be seized and evaluated? I'm sure it will if the mom files a lawsuit or something. I don't get why these people don't want anything done, they have three small children in their own household. I think the dog is a blue heeler, can't remember.

Sola said...

As I said, I know of it in Bull Terriers, English Springer Spaniels, and American Cockers. Apparently in the case of ESS, a carrier won BOS at Westminster and now due to Popular Sire Syndrome the affliction is spread throughout the breed.

Don't know of any others, though.

melodiousaphony said...

Jax...

at the VERY least that dog should be evaluated. Most places I know of have no tolerance re: unprovoked dog bites.

Personally, if it really was unprovoked (no snow thrown at dog, etc.), I think the dog should be put down. Bitting children to the point of drawing blood (to distinguish from very rude play biting that shouldn't be tolerated but isn't, necessarily, based in true aggression) and requiring surgery should be dog is put down immediately.

I fought to not have my dad report when my childhood dog bit me in the face (I woke her up from sleeping by leaning on her arthritic thigh which I didn't realize hurt her at the time). She later bit me in the arm because I went to pat her after scolding her for trying to steal cookies (dumb move, but I was young and well, stupid).

These things repeat themselves without serious intervention.

Jax said...

AC in our area seems to be..I don't know. Lax. There are some folks down the street with REALLY aggressive Wiemeraners (No idea how to spell it) and they've gotten off the hook I don't know how many times. I don't think those people should either A) be allowed to keep the dogs or B) EVER be allowed to leave their gate open, which they do when the dogs are in the house. Those dogs have bitten people riding or walking by, and are believed to have killed a cat and two sheep, but since no one actually SAW them kill, only saw them chasing, nothing was done. It makes me very angry because aside from ME not wanting to get attacked by these dogs, it gets the whole neighborhood up in arms and I'm afraid to let my dog out of my sight for a second lest someone shoot her! (we've had threats.)

Anonymous said...

hmm..

I used to work for the Winnipeg Humane Society here in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada.

I have so many horror stories about that place it's insane. the way the animals were treated, not to mention mislabelling agressive pitbulls as various mixes...

There was one dog named "Red" that was up for adoption, he had bitten 4 kennel staff and was still up for adoption. He was labelled as a lab bull dog cross, we later learned that it was known he was a pit bull. On top of that he carried part of the albino gene, apparently that makes them more agressive? Well anyways, it took red not only biting two more employees but almost tearing one of these said employees stomach open that they finally euthanized him.

I tried over and over again to bring to the attention of the managers, the vet and even the public as to what was going on with the treatment, agression and other disgusting acts going on behind the scenes at the shelter. Everyone kept turning a blind eye to what I was saying. I started keeping track of everything that was going on ie; mislabelled dogs, agressive dogs sent for adoption with problems known to the managers, the neglect that went into euthanization etc... all this investigation lead to the termination of my employment...

How else can I spread the word about the ill treatment of animals and staff at the winnipeg humane society? what else can I do? I have alot more stories to tell that would absolutely astound you that said Humane Society has done while I was employed there.

Please advise as to what I can do to help end the suffering of the animals at this so called shelter.

top_dance_johnny@hotmail.com
-Kelly

feel free to contact me.

Sarah said...

It's been my experience that AC is often reluctant to do their job. I hope the mom pursues it, and gets the dog, the owners and the AC blasted.

Topdancejohnny - good luck. I agree that this shelter seems to be in trouble, and I reccomend going to a local news source. A bleeding-heart story or video could help embarass local officials into looking into it. Be careful, though. You will get attacked for hating pit bulls if you object to anything about them, even something as obviously problematic as mislabelling aggressive dogs and sending them back into the community to bite again.

LHSES said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
LHSES said...

The problem I have with shelters labeling a dog as a Lab mix when it's really a pit bull mix is expectations of the adopter. People hear Lab and think it will be fine for an inexperienced owner (which may or may not be accurate), whereas I think most pit mixes require more experienced handlers and dedication to training.

Although the shelter could just say whether any given dog was appropriate for what kinds of owners. Actually that is what they should do anyway.

This is NOT an excuse for all the people who can't be bothered to train their Labs.

My own story about stretchy leashes:
A while ago my mother was walking our elderly, arthritic dog, who had some loss of feeling in his back legs, when this guy comes up on his cell phone and walking his Lab on a stretchy leash. The Lab rushed my dog, who tried to back up and fell. My mother had to step between the dogs to keep the Lab from rushing into my dog (who was still on the ground).

Even if a dog isn't aggressive it still needs to be under control.


Something I would like to see addressed are people who don't see a need to train their dogs because...(fill in the blank).

melodiousaphony said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sarah said...

"Something I would like to see addressed are people who don't see a need to train their dogs because...(fill in the blank)."

Oh, I could fill in that blank all day!

"I don't have to train my dog because....

- this breed was created to do X!"
Commonly used to explain why their guard or fighting types are threatening or attacking people or other dogs, why hounds are running loose, why collies are barking, why sled dogs are howling, why terriers or greyhounds are killing the neighbor's kitten, etc.)

- he doesn't need it. He's fine."
Usually heard as their calm, quiet, severely dominant dog eye-f*cks you or your dog in public. They will be amazed when Bruno simply eats a toddler later in the week.

- I have a child and I don't have time."
Do not argue with this person. Any insinuation that parenting a child does not somehow remove all other responsibilities in the lucky fertile one will be met with the bottled-up rage of someone who spends most of their waking hours with an infant.

I'm not even that much of a training fanatic. My idea of an untrained dog is one who bites. Most of the 'training' issues I hate are actually "owner not stepping in" issues. My dog is not really well-trained in that she will get into the trash, and she's pushy and obnoxious with visitors. But I step in all the time to maintain what I consider an acceptable standard. She can't step all over people, she can't bite, she can't threaten, she can't guard food, etc. Any of these behaviors, and she get put in the crate or the yard. So many people don't even do that much.

tielz said...

I can fill in the I don't train my dog because:

I DON'T WANT TO RUIN HIS/HER PERSONALITY.

I have run in to people who think that if you teach a dog anything, you are taking away from it's "freedom". UGH. Training issues are always caused by the owner not stepping in or stepping in at the wrong time for the dog to make the connection. Dogs never lie, they will show you your shortcomings and some will challenge a handler more than others. Some owners simply overface themselves with the wrong breed for their lifestyle.

An untrained dog is not one who bites. An untrained dog is one who does as it pleases with no limits or boundaries.
A poorly bred dog will not have good temperament to work with and will take more work for a handler and still may be a "time bomb". A poorly socialized dog or one who is bred with bad nerves is more dangerous than one properly trained for protection (a dog that will bite at the appropirate time).

I have had dogs who were trained when it was appropriate to bite--they were working protection dogs. Believe me, they had more obedience on them than most "pets".

L.L. said...

I'm assuming that by "poorly bred" you mean a dog whose parents are unbalanced and have mental problems. I'm assuming you are not talking about mutts, as they tend to be more well-balanced or at least AS well-balanced and trainable as any purebred / registered dog.

I know a woman with a purebred dog that was chewing on a bone or something, and she reached for the bone and the dog growled. The next day the same thing occurred and she decided she should probably not let the dog get the upperhand, so she took and bone; and got bitten. She said that it was her own fault for taking the bone away - - "I wouldn't like someone taking away something I eat, either". She went on to say that generally when she takes something away from one of her dogs, she slips a cloth bag over the dog's head first. JESUS ON A STICK. I couldn't believe this and said so (if was a post on a dog forum). You would not believe all the people who blasted me - - the general theme was that the dog "can't help it" and many told similar stories about their dog's aggression and how they just basically live with it.

We have 4 dogs, 2 purebreds and 2 mutts. They range in weight from 20 pounds to 60 pounds, and in age from 3 years old to 15+ years old. We have 2 females and 2 males, all neutered. There is absolutely nothing that I can't take from my dogs - - when I reach for anything that they have they back away. When I'm playing tug of war with one of them, I just say "drop it" and they do. By the way, we did no "formal" or professional training with our little pack, but they all know the basics of come, sit, lay, stay, leave it etc., as well as a variety of tricks. I cannot imagine living with a dog who will snarl, give you the 50 yard stare, growl or bite when you are doing anything (other than hitting) it. I think I could probably beat mine with a stick and they still wouldn't bite - - but I've never needed to hit or smack any of them.

My son brings his dog over and it's pretty hyper, age 2, basenji / rat terrier cross. You can imagine. Son's girlfriend is not real good with discipline and the dog has some really bad habits (also it came from the pound at age 1, so who knows what happened during its first year). This is a smart dog - - he will jump right on the girlfriend's lap and try to take food off her plate, stand in front of her and growl and bark when she's eating if he's not getting any, etc. It took me about 5 minutes to let him know that such behavior is unacceptable with me - - he can sit right next to me on the couch and not even look at my plate if I'm eating something.

Training a dog to behave and be appropriately social isn't rocket science. People who don't train their dogs are plain lazy, or ignorant, or maybe a combination.

Gracie said...

Un-freaking-believable! I was looking at Boston terrier pups online and ran across this page (www.abuddy4u.com) This breeder has 53 different breeds and a icon at the bottom of her page that says stop puppy mills.

Sarah said...

"Some owners simply overface themselves with the wrong breed for their lifestyle."

Some days, I think it's more like 50% of people do this.

"An untrained dog is not one who bites. An untrained dog is one who does as it pleases with no limits or boundaries."

I was thinking in terms of formal obedience work - heel, sit, stay, down, etc. - and emphasizing that as long as the dog is not a problem I don't really care if he has formal training. I know it's not popular to say in this era of puppy kindergarten and doggie parenting, but I have known several dogs who went completely untrained and were simply nice-natured, quiet, well-mannered canine citizens. You can't rely on being able to do this, but some dogs are capable of being quite well behaved without any formal training. Though of course, you need to apply those limits and boundaries to get the results.

"I have had dogs who were trained when it was appropriate to bite--they were working protection dogs. Believe me they had more obedience on them than most "pets"."

This is just not a valid comparison, though I understand how it can be true, as far as it goes. A dog trained to disregard bite inhibition, use it's own judgement independently and bite a human may be obedient (and very likely is very well-trained) but that dog is now more dangerous than a dog not so trained, and are not simply pets.

Sarah said...

Are Doxies suddenly back in style? I seem to be seeing them all over the place? I'd be thrilled if they were. I am not fond of dwarfism in breeds, but I can't help liking Dachshunds. For one thing, they're small dogs and I've about had it with idiots owning and mishandling massive canine status symbols. For another, they're so 1940's, like the brief Scottie revival we had a few years ago.

Sola said...

I've seen several around, mostly smooth Minis. (There's an adorable brindle-point black long-haired puppy I've seen around, though.) I've never thought of them as an uncommon breed, however.

Incidentally, am I the only person on the planet who firmly believes that Dachshunds have no business being classified as hounds? They're terriers. They may have some hound ancestry, but by purpose they are very obviously and firmly terriers. Most of the ones I've met even ACT like terriers. The only reason they're even classed as hounds to begin with is a mistranslation!

Troy Lynn said...

I think you should know about this appalling website: http://www.ibuystrays.com/index.html
It is utterly sickening that this person is encouraging people to raise dogs/cats to sell for research.

melodiousaphony said...

Not only that... but if this person buys strays, what is to keep someone from stealing other people's pets and selling them?!

Sarah said...

My heaven, that's a foul website. I had the impression that labs generally buy from (an icky story in itself) large-scale breeders who specialize in producing standard lines of research dogs and cats. You have to wonder how well the lab animals bought from such sources are treated, apart from the obvious nastiness of being lab animals.

I love this piece of evil from the website, though:

"WARNING: Anyone found stealing dogs or cats or capturing them in an untoward manner will immediately be suspended from selling to our service.
(However, once purchased and within our system, our strictly enforced policy is that we absolutely can not return product under any circumstance)."

Apart from the terrible writing involved, which implies that the policy has been bought and placed within the system, it seems to overlook the federal Animal Welfare Act governing lab animals -

"Dealers must provide valid certification to anyone acquiring random source dogs and cats from them."

melodiousaphony said...

From a purely scientific standpoint (and yes, this makes me shiver, but I am studying to go to vet school so I guess I'll run into this), it would probably be better with respect to research if the dogs/cats experimented on were from similar lines. If the genetic differences between breeds can cause such dramatic differences in predisposition to disease, etc., I don't see the advantage of having drastically different breeds in a lab situation. The only exception to that being if one is studying those differences.

That said, if someone's dog is stolen and put into that system, they ought to be able to get it back. The person who stole the dog should be strung up or something (strung up being what I want to do, but there should be HUGE legal repercussions, not just ::slap:: you can't sell to us any more).

The whole thought makes me shiver.

Are labs required to check for microchips, etc., before doing anything?

Sola said...

I thought most labs used purebred Beagles anyway for the same reasons you mentioned, Melodiousphony. (Beagles because they're generally small and nonaggressive and therefore easy to keep.) I've heard about some of the Department of Agriculture's fruit-sniffing Beagles being ex-research experiments as well.

(I'm also playing with the idea of pre-vet, by the way, although I'm just about to graduate high school, so I have a long way to go if I take that career path.)

~CRUNCHBERRYS MOM~ said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
~CRUNCHBERRYS MOM~ said...

oops.. my friends mom's beagle has bitten 2 ppl.... and she adopted it from the pound here! so it isn't only pits.

Sarah said...

No, it's not just pit bulls but it's mostly them. All dogs can bite, all shelters can fail and send home a biter, all owners can screw up and end up pushing a dog into a bite. But a bite from some breeds are worse than others, and bites from the breeds that were developed specifically to bite and not let go are typically the worst.

Irantfordays said...

A pitbull doesn;t have all that amazing of a bite rottweiler german shepherd and even the belgain malinois have tested to have a much better bite.

In a neo geo program they tested the bite of a gsd rotty and pitbull the pitbull was very far last.

Sarah said...

I wasn't discussing bite pressure. I said pit bulls and other 'fighting' breeds were developed to bite down and then not let go. It's not the strength of their jaws, it's the chemical/mental switch that flips when they bite that tells them "Don't let go." When you have a powerful and relatively impervious dog whose aggression once aroused stays aroused despite gross physical punishment - which is typical of the pit bull, and is not typical of the guard breeds such as the GSD - you have a dog who can do massive damage in a very short period of time. I'm not saying they're evil or that GSDs can't bite. But it's silly to claim that there's nothing different in the biting habits and the potential between various breeds.

cwranchusa said...

This is a Shima breeder to be aware of or "beware" of. She has a bad reputation with many who have dealt with her.
http://www.sweetshimas.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=8&chapter=0

Sarah said...

I looked at the website (ouch) and I still don't understand - what are Shimas?

Sola said...

After doing a bit of Googling, since I couldn't find anything about the so-called breed anywhere on the site, I've concluded that it's another cutesily-named cross-bred selling for far too much. In this case, "Shima" appears to be an euphemism for "Shih Tzu/Maltese."

That said, that site has one of the worst designs I've ever seen. And it claims to be professional? There's no information about anything on the site beyond the pups for sale. Even for designer dog breeders, it's a bad one.

~CRUNCHBERRYS MOM~ said...

a kid here was bitten by a GSD a couple of years ago. so they started trying to pass a 'dangerous dog' law here.
well as a pit owner, i was concerned, and went to their meeting. they claimed it wasn't BSL, but guess what the ONLY breed mentioned by name was? that's right. the pit bull. of course.
no mention of the GSD who did the biting in the 1st place. none whatsoever.

Sarah said...

It's not unreasonable to mention pit bulls instead of GSDs at the meeting. Say, a deer escaped from a zoo and charged someone, the neighbors might reasonably be up in arms about the zoo's containment measures. But the animal mentioned at the resulting meeting would probably be the animal people thought of as the most threatening - say, the tigers - instead of the deer. Even though the deer was the inspiration for the meeting and even though the deer was legitimately dangerous, the reasoning behind the meeting isn't to contain deer better, it's to contain dangerous animals better, and the example that sprang to mind would be the tiger for most people (personally, I'd also want the chimps contained, but people often underestimate chimps)

In other words, although the original dog was a GSD and although GSDs are certainly capable of biting and killing, people recognize pit bulls as being more of a threat than GSDs. You can certainly argue whether they're right, but I think it's a little unfair to insinuate their mentioning pit bulls only was some sort of bizarre lack of logic.

Snarkysnark said...

Oh, Labradors. I have things to say about Labs.

Please understand: I have a Lab. I adore her. I'm truly crazy about her. We do SAR (search and rescue work) together and have an excellent relationship.

Here's the thing: I run about 5 miles a day. We do SAR training on the weekends. After much training, she trots along next to me when I ride my horse. She's a saint.

Why is she a saint?

Well, because she's TIRED. She's REALLY TIRED. She works hard all day. She has to chase the birds out of the yard, chase the mice out of the tack room, run next to me while I jog or ride my horse, lie quietly on her bed while I'm at the office, and find lost hikers on the weekends.

I adopted her from the pound even after the previous owners (who bought her from a pet store after she was bred at a puppymill) tagged her as "untrainable." I took her home on her last day on doggy death row because she was "too rambunctious" to be adopted out to a family.

I love Labs. They're outstanding family dogs if, AND ONLY IF, they are adequately (read: positively) trained and exercised and, most importantly, NOT BORED. A bored lab is a destructive, impossible lab. A bored lab will bite you or someone else. You do not want a bored lab. If someone likes to sit and knit, a lab is NOT FOR THAT PERSON.

I wish more people would understand that.

melodiousaphony said...

Re: Labs

One of the many other random dogs with which my bully type is mixed has been guessed to be lab. As a breed, I have mixed feelings about labs, but I think it's more what most of my feels are based on about different breeds: the people that own them. I like tired labs ;) Labs with a job, and so on.
On the days I can't walk her, my dog is a good girl. However, she is walked/brought to the barn/working on being around horses, etc., etc. and the majority of days she is tired (for a pup, which is tough, because over tired is just as bad for her as under).

So I agree: tired = good.

L.L. said...

Just recently read an interesting comment regarding some of the quasi-hysterica over the dog bite 'epidemic" and especially over the ferocious and vicious pitbull (said with TONS of sarcasm). The comment is that we have hundreds of times more to fear from MEN or just people in general than pitbulls.

Also, dogs of any breed are nearly 3x more likely to bite when they are restrained (chained etc), the vast majority of dog bits from all breeds occur on the owners property, the property of a friend, and by the owner's dog, and age group most commonly bitten is 15 year old boys (Hmmmm, wonder if there was tormenting of the dog going on?), and that the only reason it appears that pitbulls, GSDs, etc. bite so much more is that people don't report all the bites by other breeds. it is true that people are most likely to be killed by pitbulls, rotts, etc. but that shouldn't take a rocket scientist or a research statistician to figure that out - - way bigger, often trained to attack (just like dobermans were a couple of decades ago - - another breed that was #1 in attacks / deaths until they stopped being so popular with thugs for protection).

I'm with you on the labs, and any dog crossed with a lab. PITA, and most people have a false idea that they are "great" family dogs and relaxed. HA! They are a working breed, if you don't hunt regularly or have plenty of time to train and exercise, stay away from the breed or face the consequences. Same goes for dogs like border collies - - we have 2 of them and yeah, they require a lot of exercise and training or they are complete pills. People who just want a freaking pet dog need to look at dogs bred for companionship, like bostons. Although I've seen a lot of older people with Bostons where the dog is a pill as well, possibly spoiled and untrained and yippy as hell.

Gracie said...

I have a boston and I was doing research on the breed. I found one artical that said Boston terriers were origionally bred to fight. I believe that as Bostons will not back down from a fight with a dog of any size and usually start fights with much bigger dogs. I have to keep on my Boston all the time to keep her from picking fights with my two much larger dogs.

Sarah said...

"the only reason it appears that pitbulls, GSDs, etc. bite so much more is that people don't report all the bites by other breeds."

Well, that's a new one.

"just like dobermans were a couple of decades ago - - another breed that was #1 in attacks / deaths until they stopped being so popular with thugs for protection)."

It was more than a couple of decades ago, it was more like 50 years. And the major reason was that the AKC breeders quit selecting for 'sharpness' - used to be, judges in the ring couldn't physically touch a Dobe.

"People who just want a freaking pet dog need to look at dogs bred for companionship, like bostons."

Dogs were meant to be companions. A very, very few dogs are required in high-intensity jobs that require next to no 'pet' skills. The rest should be able to be pets - aka, not bite the neighbor's kid for shrieking suddenly, not pace a hole in the floor if they don't get a 30-mile run, etc. These are flaws in an individual of any breed of dog, not signs you chose the wrong breed.

Snarkysnark said...

I totally agree that dogs are meant to be companions and that there's a problem when a dog cannot be a reasonable companion, but I think a lot of behavior problems are related to our lousy, sedentary, modern American lifestyles.

Not getting enough exercise is a huge problem for people, and leads to all kinds of health problems, like diabetes and heart disease...even cancer and depression. It's totally reasonable to expect that an under-exercised and/or bored dog would develop behavioral issues.

I think that many people who have a higher-energy dog (or really any dog) and expect their dog to sit nicely at home or outside in the yard while they work an 8 hour day and then sit nicely by their feet while they watch TV all night are seriously deluding themselves. Do those dogs exist? Sure. If you have that dog, great. But even a dog that is capable of being good without exercise would probably still enjoy some. My dogs will put up with the "long day at work, exhausted on the couch at home" schedule once in a while, but they're much better behaved when they've had a nice workout (and so am I!).

I think lots and lots and LOTS of perfectly nice dogs end up in rescue or euthanized simply because their humans wouldn't walk them or give them enough to do.

Sarah said...

Just wanted to say "Yeah, Beagles!" for the Westminster win the other night. I know all the death-of-cheer people will be pulling long faces and gloomily talking about puppy mills churning out little Snoopies, but first, let's just celebrate the victory of one of the cutest dogs to go BIS for a while.

Sola said...

Anyway, it's not as if the poor Beagle people are suddenly going to see the breed become popular--Beagles already ARE really popular pets. It's like a GSD winning Westminster, except Beagles are cuter and show Beagles actually look pretty functional (and adorable).

I actually do currently have a three-year-old dog who is content to sleep quietly in a crate from 7:00 AM to 6:00 PM, then flop over next to various family members with no more daily exercise than maybe two or three rounds of tug-of-war-cum fetch. He also does not shed. If I didn't own him myself, I wouldn't believe it. (He is a 40-pound rescue mutt who is probably a Pembroke Welsh Corgi crossed with either a Wheaten Terrier or a Border Terrier, by the way.) It's a pity there's not a breed with those qualities, IMO--it could be called something like the American Couch Dog.

Alternatively Cavalier King Charles Spaniels could be popular. There's a breed that's created solely to be friendly and adoring, without much work needed. I for one feel proud at the moment--my neighbors love spaniels, and were planning to acquire an English Springer pup a while ago. The husband, who will be the main caretaker of the dog, is currently relegated to being at home due to medical issues and is not in any shape to exercise a young, very athletic dog like a Springer (and had no idea of the amount of work that Springers entail). I convinced him to look into Cavaliers instead for a spaniel that had all of the "sweet" qualities while being manageable for someone who wasn't able to exercise much beyond "walk around the neighborhood." Anyway, they're bringing their new Ruby puppy home tomorrow. :)

L.L. said...

Rescueweary, I couldn't disagree with you more. Example: Border Collies are often purchased by people with no clue as to the needs of the breed. I work with a BC rescue and we are always inundated. The vast majority of BCs are NOT bred to live a sedentary life, they are working / herding dogs. The same goes for labs, they are hunting / working dogs and think for a minute about the millions of labs and lab-crosses in shelters. You don't honestly think those dogs are all in the pound because the individual dog had a flaw, do you? Because the sad truth is that those dogs do NOT generally make great family pets in our US homes until they are well-trained and probably around 3 years old. It's a breed trait that people don't realize will need some actual attention. People get little dogs and sometimes get rid of them when they get "nippy" or "yippy" - yeah, that would generally be due to the fact that the human thought they were basically getting a cute little stuffed toy, not an actual DOG - - dog then develops irritating habits and "regretfully has to go".

There are some dogs that can deal with our sedentary lifestyle better, some that do not require as much walking or vigorous exercise. One of those dogs actually tends to be a greyhound, which you can still adopt from tracks (the few that are still open). They walk nicely on lead after being at the track, and most really ARE couch potatoes, and quite gentle.

Also, being that I'm only 51, I know for a fact that it wasn't 50 years ago that there was a big problem with DPs being used for attack / guard dogs. I'll split the difference with you, say 30 years.

Sarah said...

The Cavalier is adorable, but they have a horrific problem with heart disease which is by far the worst of the breed-related health issues out there, and until that's resolved, I can't agree that they're a good breed to recomend as a pet.

l.l., I agree, some purebreds or mixes from 'working' lines are too 'hot' to be good pets, and some breeds tend to be too much dog for the average sedentary home. I just get tired of hearing the breed excuse being overused. I love the collies, own a Beardie/Border mix right now, and she was about 4 before I could get a non-blurry photo of her. So I do agree that some totally nice, normal dogs are going bonkers from being in families that cant'/don't give them a chance to run like they need to. But some behaviors are not just energy related, and I get fed up with them being dismissed as just 'what the breed is about.' ie, dogs so wired or hyper that they have extreme reactivity, or so obsessive they have neurotic behaviors, or so aggressive they'll attack anything that moves. I don't care if these were originally GREAT tendencies for the job their ancestors performed in 1896 Yorkshire or 1912Dusseldorf, some of these behaviors need to be modified so the breeds can exist sanely as pets.

I think that many of the energy issues could be solved if people wanting, say, a lab type, were steered toward a dog 2+ years old. So many shelter dogs are around 1 year, the height of energy. But to be honest, I'm not sure I want most shelters to steer newbies toward older dogs. I simply don't trust a lot of shelters to screen for aggression, which is a more serious problem in dogs old enough to have solid experience practicing on humans and other animals.

nomoregrays said...

melodiousaphony said...
... I think that breeders should be required to be licensed so maybe I've fallen off my rocker all together.

What you are suggesting is similar to the idea of outlawing guns as a means of gun control. The law-abiding breeders (meaning those who carefully select their breeding stock to improve the breed) will get a license or stop breeding. Those who breed their dog(s) just because they want their children to see the magic of birth or because they think their pet dog is so special that they want a puppy to carry on the legacy - you get the drift - will still breed their dogs without getting a license. After all, aren't pet shops where they drop off their unwanted puppies?

And what's with these "designer dogs" anyway? I'd be lucky to get 1/4 of the amount for a pure-bred AKC registered puppy that these "designer" breeders are getting for what is essentially a mutt!

Hidalgo said...

Was at the pet store getting fish food - lady has a German pointer on a leash semi-listening to her and she asks another guy "do they ever calm down?"
No, lady, it's a German Pointer. Should have looked that up before you bought it. If you have it a small apartment, you can bet your ass you're going to have to walk it four times a day. Research the breed before you buy! My own dog is 10 and is just now starting to calm down although she still needs 1-2 hours of exercise a day.

Hidalgo said...

Interesting topic would be English bulldog breeders. Some have been breeding excessively for pushed in face/lots of wrinkles as well as very stocky bodies and ignoring other problems like narrow ear canals, soft palate blocking throat and needing to be lasered off so dog can have a hope of cooling down, cysts in the paws, etc etc etc Are all these "side issues" really acceptable to have some extra wrinkles and large shoulders!
Cute dogs, friendly and big pushovers, but talk about high maintenance just to keep them from falling apart!!

Sola said...

A German Shorthaired Pointer is going to need more than four walks a day--they're more in the line of at least an hour's hard exercise per day, from personal experience. Walking just isn't going to it, unless we're talking twenty-mile walks over rough ground or something. Jeez.

ottbluver said...

What happened to Moontoad?? Did she drop off the face of the planet??

Hidalgo said...

Sola,

I know! That is how I ended up with my own dog, which is why I mentioned the four walks a day (what the last owner used to do).
In my dog's case, a couple bought a cute puppy (as it always goes) and they were living in a small apartment in the downtown of a big city. Of course, dog grew up, and they kept taking it for walks (at least) several times a day, but it was just never enough. Dog was going nuts, racing around apartment, barking alot etc. Now couple has a baby, so not even time left for short walks. Dog gets put on a list for re-homing. To give them credit, they seemed like nice people, who just didn't look into the breed, and they did take care of her as well, and once they saw it wasn't working they called the breeder and then the breed rescue to find her the best home possible.
She ended up with me, who lives in the country, and where she gets taken for "a walk" that means she runs loose in the woods while I walk or ride my horse for minimum 1 hour (more on weekends). She has great recall and she always comes to check where I am, but she is running the whole time.

Hopefully they haven't gone out and blindly purchased another "cute" dog....